Issue 10: Page 6
September 1st, 2011

Issue 10: Page 6

HORROR SHOW MONDAY

JOE:Hi Diva Fans. We’ve received a lot of demands to disclose just how much a page of Evil Diva costs to produce, and with all due respect, we’re just not going to divulge an exact dollar amount. As we’ve stated before, all proceeds collected go directly toward the production of Evil Diva pages. Neither Pete nor I have ever pocketed a cent of your contributions, and the amount we pay Cassandra and Sev is laughably paltry compared to the industry standard for illustrations drawn to the professional quality they bring to every single update. Beyond that I’d only add that just as you wouldn’t want anyone rifling through your tax returns, we ask that you respect our right to financial privacy. As always we thank all of you who can afford to contribute to Evil Diva’s success. You are the life’s blood of this title through very difficult economic times and we’ll find a way to repay you all.

No page for tomorrow. Sorry. But, there is a new page coming on Thursday.

INCENTIVE ART: This is dark, so no preview. Be ready.

65 Comments...

  1. me

    HOW MUCH MONEY DOES ONE PAGE COST!?!? I’ve asked this before and haven’t gotten a reply. It would be a lot easier to decide if or how much money to give if we knew what the goal was.

  2. Severin

    Each page is $200. All of the money coming in from the store, from advertising, and from donations goes directly toward buying a page. Sorry for the confusion!

  3. maeverin

    Tia’s doing homework i see >;^}

  4. BlackBeyond

    I love how you can see Diva’s blush in the third panel! XD
    Don’t think she wants to know /quite/ what her sister does for school~ *whistles*

  5. Sparx

    That’s an awful lot for one page of a cartoon-y webcomic. No wonder it’s so hard to keep up with it. :/

  6. Ginger

    HAHAHAHAHAHA I can see *I* picked the wrong college major! Go, Tia, go!

    Okay, today’s sandwich money is going towards comic. What can I say. You talked me into it. *^_^*

  7. Fox

    I’m a little confused.

    Sooo, why was Tia on the phone if she had a guy tied to her bed? I hope this get’s explained Dx…

  8. Mel. Star.

    Well, I guess since the post that was here is gone, I won’t reference it. I’ll just say I don’t know why the price of the comic is being kept so close to vest. It’s like going to the store, getting a candy bar and just having the cashier hold out their hand without saying a word. What’s worse, it’s like paying .98 cents, and having the cashier say “sorry, not enough” when all the while the candy bar was .99 cents. That would make me just a little uncomfortable. Well, whatever. My account is overdrawn by 83 dollars so I can’t donate this week. Hopefully I get that straightened out soon @_@. Stupid banks.

    As far as the page goes, I love it (esp. panel 3). Poor Chip. Lord knows how long he’ll be waiting there. I’ll rescue him! Mwa ha haa.

  9. Fairportfan

    Can’t see the incentive.

  10. Anonymouse

    I have to agree. I’ve seen this asked many times and there has yet to be an answer. Even a range would be fine, if one page costs more than another for whatever reason. But this being completely silent about it is weirding me out. Not only would it help people decide how much to give, it just seems kind of shady to keep silent about it, because people could be giving hundreds of dollars over what is necessary and no one would know.

    Mind you, I am not accusing anyone of anything. Please don’t take it that way. But not being able to see how much your donation makes a dent or knowing how much money Team Diva is taking in is making me somewhat loathe to contribute.

  11. Albet

    How much are your production costs?

  12. LB

    I’ve seen a lot of people ask over and over again, with no response. It seems to be making a lot of readers uncomfortable. I’ve donated a few times now ($10 at a time), and I have been pleased to do so. However, I don’t think I can continue without further information. I’m sorry, Evil Diva team.

  13. Concerned Fan

    How much does it cost to make a page? We would be more willing to donate if you were more transparent with us. If this issue is not addressed, I will stop reading your comic. What you are doing is shady.

  14. Lady

    Honestly I don’t think they are going to divulge the information on how much production costs. I think that to do so would cause problems.

    Let me reiterate some points that were discussed with my professor about such things.
    Let’s use a couple of examples. Say you asked Diva Team how much it cost to make a page. Diva team says “About $10″. Now everyone would know it cost $10 to make one page.
    Two things can happen, here.

    -Good thing: Everyone donates $10 and doesn’t comment about it so now we have about 20 or so pages fully funded.

    -Bad thing: Someone donates $10 and actually goes ahead and donates $50 so that for at least five weeks we have all Diva. That certain someone decides to mention it in the comments. Now no one donates because they feel that it’s already taken care of by “rich kid”. Of course one could say “Well, that’s okay cause after the five weeks I’ll donate” but then what if week 5 comes around and someone posts “I donated $15″ and then someone replies “Let me take care of the $5″. Now everyone else decides not to donate.
    You can always say “well, then don’t post about your donations” but you always know someone will.

    To talk about how much production costs is like saying “Here’s all that your money is paying for” because let’s say the comic costs $25 to produce. Someone asks “WHy that much?”…Now people want to know WHERE all the money is divided to. “Oh it pays us this much so that we can eat and live”. Then someone says “Oh, you don’t deserve that much for some comic” then the reply is “sorry you feel that way”. Then we can also have people saying “It shouldn’t cost THAT much to make a comic”.

    In short people WILL complain about silly, stupid stuff…others will make things difficult and more uncomfortable for others and frankly why SHOULD they tell you. If you want to donate then donate. You already know that donating makes the comic come back and that’s what you all want, right???

  15. Kate

    I’ve got to second this. I’ve donated twice now (not much, but it’s what I can afford) and would love to do so in the future. I want to see more webcomics be taken seriously and become full-time jobs for the creators, and I very much want Evil Diva to succeed at this.

    But it gets really hard to give money blindly when I don’t know how much Evil Diva’s costs actually are. What comes to mind is the possibility that the pages are horrendously expensive (like, $800 each); I know this probably isn’t true but I can’t see any other reason for the secrecy. I’d feel a lot more comfortable about donating if information like that was volunteered.

    That being said, I’ll continue to follow and support Evil Diva for as long as it continues – here’s hoping for many more years!

  16. Kismet

    I’m more concerned as to WHY the Diva Team needs donations to make each page than what the donation goal is for each page. Is this their secondary source of income or something? (I know it’s not the main source, because that would be ludicrous.) I don’t know of any other webcomics that HAVE to receive donations in order to pump out material. It just seems a little… odd.

  17. Mel. Star.

    I don’t disagree at all. When people see a price, no matter how reasonable, someone always complains about it being too much. That is definitely a possibility, but the flip side of that argument is also valid and, unfortunately, that’s where I’m sort of stuck right now.

    When people walk past a Santa ringing a bell for the Salvation Army, most people may drop in the change from their pockets. It’s rare to see a $20 bill in the tin. When a radio station says “We need $250k for a new antenna” people pledge dollar amounts, 5, 10 50 and so on. I think when people know they’re working toward a goal and not just dropping money into a whole, they’re willing to do something to work toward it.

    In the end, if the ED Team wants to keep the number from the public, that’s fine. I just wish they’d address that instead of ignoring the comments inquiring about the comic cost.

  18. DropDeadPoet

    I just wish the thermometer moved lol. It drives me insane. I can’t donate nowadays because my job is barely paying for food nevermind textbooks (I’m sure you all know the starving college student thing). I’ll probably buy a book or tee or something once my refund gets in though.

  19. BabyDaisy

    Oh yes! ;) She must have the most fun whilst at college!

  20. Shiva

    They addressed that very well, I thought, when they first asked for donations. http://www.evildivacomics.com/?p=1733

  21. Mel. Star.

    Since I’ve been pretty vocal about wanting the ED Team to respond in some way to the fans demand for a dollar amount, I think I should respond to their most recent comment. Thanks ED Team for addressing the issue. I can’t speak for everyone else, but I think what was bothering me the most was the silence. We know y’all aren’t a bunch of crooks, pocketing $999 and giving poor Cassandra the other $1, but you have to admit that it requires a LOT of faith for readers to pay for something that 1) used to be free 2) you will never know the monetary value of. I don’t mean that to sound snarky, if it does I’m sorry. @_@ It’s so hard to convey tone over the internet.

    Thanks again for your dedication. I’m still not 100% comfortable tossing money at ???, but I will donate every now and then.

  22. Mel. Star.

    lol, that’s hilarious. I hadn’t even thought of that. MY question was: Where was Tia laying if there was someone already filling up the entire bed. I’ve been looking over the panels and I can’t quite figure that one out…

  23. Mel. Star.

    Ah, just figured it out. There’s another bed/lounging area in the room. lol. I wish you could edit replies here.

  24. Silka

    It is entirely possible that people want to know how much a page costs so that they can say, “Here! I am donating the EXACT COST of a page! Let the good times roll!”

  25. Kate

    I disagree. You can see the amount of time and effort put into each page and I’m completely happy with the price. Artists deserve fair wages, too, and $200 is more than reasonable IMHO.

    Thanks so much for answering, Severin. I feel a lot more comfortable about donating now, and I’m looking forward to continuing to support this excellent comic.

  26. Lux

    “…the amount we pay Cassandra and Sev is laughably paltry compared to the industry standard for illustrations drawn to the professional quality they bring to every single update.”

    I’m wondering what the basis for comparison is. Compared to professional illustrators or even comic book artists who work for big names, it surely is laughable. If you are comparing to freelance artists and general beginners in the industry…They are either being paid enough or even too much (despite how nice each page is.) I’m wondering just how much it costs to keep this web comic running and how it gets split because out of all the ones I read, this is the only one that demands donations for content. Maybe you should consider looking at other successful web comics and see, or even ask, how they keep their stuff running.

  27. Sparx

    Being an artist myself, I still have to disagree. If an artist charges by the hour, let’s assume that minimum wage is about $8. A cartoon-y comic like this should take 10 hours to make at most, because there isn’t a lot of detail, unless the artist is REALLY slow. So that would make a page $80, and I could justify charging up to $100 a page. To me, asking for $200 PER PAGE for a comic is totally ridiculous, especially since it’s a cartoon. I know it takes a lot of effort to draw something like this regardless of the style, but I can’t justify charging that, let alone PAYING for it. This is a webcomic cartoon, not a super-popular, world-renowned comic with ratings through the roof. It’s a good comic and the art is good, but I just can’t agree with the price.

    I understand that working for less doesn’t make a living, but it just seems to me like a lot more should be given for what is being received.

  28. Mel. Star.

    I don’t know if I agree with that. I’m also an artist and for freelancers, $40 an hour is the absolute lowest I’ve seen an illustrator go. 40 an hour is like… slave wages. If Cassandra spends 5 hours per page at 40 an hour, it comes out to be about $200 bucks. Then there’s the fact that Severin also has to get paid since he (I think he… she?) also works on the page. If they both get equal pay, that’s $100 a month for both of them. But wait, there’s also the issue of hosting the site, upfront money for the products they sell, printing the comic.

    I was assuming that they needed around $500 a page at least. But there in lies the problem. People shouldn’t have to guess a price to a product they’re paying for… but I’ve beaten that dead horse enough, lol.

  29. Mel. Star.

    Not month, I meant to say page. Meh.

  30. Shiva

    Haha, I think that’s about the one thing on this whole crazy comment section that I actually agree with. It’s not like they have to put a price marker on the thermometer that we can see, just that how filled it is changes/updates, even if it’s just done manually once a day or so. Like make a bunch of stock images and put up the one that best represents how close we are. I dunno how this stuff works.

  31. bp

    Remember folks, when REALLY tying someone up for fun or profit – NEVER leave the restrained party alone or out of immediate contact, should an emergency arise.

    PSAs from the innapropriadome!

  32. Shiva

    BTW, I wanted to just express support to Team Diva again. I can’t donate a lot, but I’m more than happy to throw the $5 I CAN afford at you every couple of weeks. I officially entered it into my mint.com budget. I love you guys for keeping the comic going as long as you have, and for doing your best to keep it going now. I, personally, don’t know if I could have dealt with all the flak you’ve been taking, so I applaud you! Thanks for the great comic!

  33. mehdi

    Oh , please tell me it’s gonna be hot …

  34. Cao Cao

    A consumer that asks how much they’re paying for a product is not the same thing as a person rifling through your tax returns without asking. If you go to Wal-Mart you’ll notice they’ve got price tags on everything and don’t find it an invasion of their privacy that people know what they’re charging. No, it doesn’t make a difference that they’re a big company.

    Your ultimatum is “pay us, or you can get bent”. Just looking for money alone isn’t to be frowned upon, but you can lower or raise the amount you’re demanding any time without anyone being the wiser. In fact, that’s the only practical reason why you would want to keep your consumers ignorant of the actual price. This privacy thing is just a little moral quibble to justify it. That or you’re hoping your readers will over-pay on their own.

    Just show the dollar amount you’re asking for and assume better of your readers.

  35. lol'd

    where is my wand she said

  36. lol'd

    oh by the way, if they tell how much they pay here, there will be a tax-evasion guy knocking their door tomorrow or something :P
    If they say how much each page costs, someone could claim that its not donations they ask but that they are ”selling” which could be bad for them in more than one ways.

  37. Lady

    they just said above that its $200/pg! Who’s being shady? Though I do like seeing a meter. Also! What artist deserves to earn minimum wage? Or even just to split $200 between people for a week? Even if it were $800, if you’re doing this full time that’s still barely paying rent for the month! I think everyone should read the book “Understanding Comics,” if you’re even so much as remotely interested in them. One small part of the book talks about how comic artists have gotten a bad rap in the artist community even though its a huge part of our history and culture in ways that we don’t even normally think about. If cartoons weren’t very important we wouldn’t spend every day chasing them around, our lives wouldn’t be so impacted by them. Comic artists need support, and need to be taken seriously. The “cartoonishness” that might make this quicker to draw allows us to relate to the characters, its not like that just for speed, and its not a reason to pay them nothing! I would love to make a living doing this, but because everyone expects comic artists (and other types, really) to work for free, there are few who expect to actually make it happen. Okay sorry got a little serious on you there, guys.

  38. Sicarius

    In the previous comments posted, I believe the amount was quoted at two hundred dollars…That being said, it seems rather hinky to me to post a reply to someone’s comment saying such an amount only to go back and say they are unwilling to disclose an actual amount when they already have…as I said, hinky…

    That dog won’t hunt monsignor…

  39. Sicarius

    …as for ‘find a way to repay you all’ I cannot help but wonder how that will even be possible…*ponders*

  40. Kadiva

    Have you thought about trying a kickstarter project? That way you could fund the next 50 pages or so?

  41. DropDeadPoet

    They have been doing a wonderful job. AND THE THERMOMETER MOVED! YAY! Hopefully as the year goes on I can pick up more shifts at my job, which would mean I could stick some cash in the donation box more frequently (as well as feed myself HA). Team Diva rocks, hopefully they pick up more fans since they’ve been pretty high on TWC recently.

  42. James Smith

    Tiedy-whities? Really, is that the choice of the Heavenly host. That means, little boys go to Heaven, grown men in boxers party in Hell! >;D

  43. Anonymouse

    First of all, if you looked, this post was made before Severin responded above. Second of all, I am not expecting them to work for free. You’ll note that nowhere in my response did I suggest such a thing. All I said was that I would like to know what we’re shooting for. As I mentioned, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I was merely submitting the thought that people don’t much like throwing money at an invisible target.

    I’m not sure why you chose my comment to respond to with this, because it seems to have almost nothing to do with it. I never said they should work for free, nor did I say that the price was too high or too low.

  44. Joseph

    I’m so glad I voted today.

  45. T

    Agreed with the post above. I can see why the creators are uncomfortable with disclosing the amounts, but of the webcomics I know to ask for donations for content (albeit, they are few), they always have an exact dollar amount written and a meter that changes as donations increase. It’s not a matter of financial privacy; it’s just giving donaters the transparency they should have. If anything, it will encourage readers to donate more, if there is a final goal number in mind.

    Also, does this mean that Severin’s comment before is negated? Or is that truly the amount for each page?

  46. me

    Thank you for telling me, now I know how much I’d like to give. I understand the desire for privacy, but if you’re going to ask someone for money you need to give them an idea of how much they need to pay. You don’t walk into a print shop, place an order, and then just pay as much as you can and hope it’s enough. The printer tells you how much it will cost and you pay up front or work out a plan. We’re not riffling through anyone’s tax returns…

  47. ChristineA

    Both Mel and Lady have valid points. Unfortunately, as Lady pointed out, there will always, always be people who say “oh, someone else will donate so I don’t have to this time.” That simply is a fact of life, and something that will never change.

    But I agree more strongly with Mel. People are more willing to donate when they have a goal to work towards. Also, IMHO, donation incentives could be a help in cutting down the number of people unwilling to donate because “someone else already has.” Offering a carrot of a unique wallpaper or for a higher donation a gift of a signed print or book would work better than to say “donate and at some point we’ll update the comic when we get a mysterious goal reached.”

    Also, Cao Cao makes an excellent point below that Team Diva is providing a product for consumers. As consumers we would like to know what the cost of said product is. We aren’t asking to see what each member of Team Diva makes, only to see what production costs are. Surly you will agree there is a difference between the two.

    And finally, lol!! a HUGE & GINORMOUS thank you to Severin for replying with an estimate of production costs. Now we readers have a GOAL to work towards, and as soon as I can scrape together some funds, I will donate. ;)

  48. maeverin

    @vote incentive

    AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

    *catches breath*

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!

  49. Yuniko

    Sparx, please see:

    http://clintflickerlettering.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-digital-publishing-wont-save-comics.html

    and

    http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/31/thinking-of-making-your-own-comic-book-read-this-first/

  50. Cao Cao

    But they are selling, aren’t they? Each page costs $200, and that’s what they’re selling it to the internet for with the internet as a collective consumer. It’s not a charity in the remotest sense.

    If you think about the three comics per week output of some of the really well-known comics out there, Diva would be requesting $2,400 per month for that kind of schedule. Their comics are a touch larger than the usual three a week guys, though.

    In any case, in the past when I’ve seen webcomic artists ask for money, they usually put up a thing and say, “We need this much to live per month,” and most of the time they make or surpass their goals as long as they keep updating. Although what I’ve seen may be up to $1,000 per month. I haven’t seen the hostage situation work for extended periods before, and I’ve never seen the kind of paranoia that forces the artist to hide how much money they want.

  51. Kadiva

    It’s probably not a huge deal. Exemptions are key! In some states you can file as tax exempt if you make under a certain amount each year or are a full-time student.

  52. Sicarius

    Indeed…fates, with regards to most of the webcomics I’ve read, the author(s) usually make a point to let you know what’s going on with their lives and if they’ve been having troubles, they let you know…they don’t just broadside us with an update about financial worries with a pay-us-or-go-screw-yourself type tone to it…seriously though, if you’re having that much trouble that you must have us pay essentially pay a bloody ransom just so we can get our comic fix, go get another job…I hear Aldi’s is hiring…eleven bucks an hour just to work the register…*winkwinknudgenduge*

  53. A.C.

    Great as this page is, the incentive is KILLING ME!!! Seriously, I had to stop looking at it as the giggles were starting to hurt! :P

  54. Shiva

    I think THAT was a case of wires getting crosses, the right hand not talking to the left sort of a thing.

  55. lol'd

    they are not selling to the internet, you can see it without paying. Time costs, and they can’t afford the time to update too often…so if no donations are paid its harder to find time. Besides if they get into taxes only the time they will need to figure out how much they have to pay will cost too much by itself.

    Now imagine if I sell hammers
    and you ask me
    -how much this hammer costs?
    -50$
    -why, how much you bought it? The metal isn’t that costy and in China ppl work for low…

    I wouldn’t reply to you either.

  56. uh

    regarding people “complaining about costs no matter how reasonable”…i’m pretty sure that’s just how economics works. because “reasonable” is not a black and white term. you see something, you assign a value to it, and that value is what you are willing to pay for that good. for some people (e.g. me), paying on a weekly basis to get a webcomic of which the supply of free webcomics is in no shortage is ludicrous. hence the complaining. just saying, because your statement was kind of retarded.

  57. ChristineA

    Not to be a nit pick, but I’d only want to know the cost of said hammer. :D I don’t need to know how much the seller paid his supplier in China for it. If I think it’s too much to pay, I’ll go to another store to see if it’s a lower price there, not badger the owner for how much he paid so I can bargain with him. ;D Whether they are “selling” for cash or not, Evil Diva is a product put out for consumption by the readers. Yes, it’s on the Internet for free, but it’s still a product being offered. I don’t think we need to know what each member of Team Diva is paid to make the comic, that is, as Joe pointed out, not really any of our business. What would be nice to know, and again, thank you Severin for letting us know, is how much the comic costs as a whole to produce so readers who are willing and able to donate have an idea of what to chip in to make sure comic pages can be produced.

  58. Anonymous

    @Lady – ED updates twice a week. Nobody makes a living off of doing 8 pages a month.

  59. Lady

    And this is probably exactly why they didn’t want to tell anyone the cost in the first place. =/ because people like you and the people from below who complain about it. If you don’t want to pay the “high price” then just leave. I mean I’m not trying to be mean or yell, that’s not it at all. Please don’t get me wrong but an artist NEVER deserves $8. Actually the average per hour pay for a sequential artist is $25 per hour. I know because I worked in the industry and although I only receive $15 because I was a temp hire but the higher ups got $25 to $30 an hour. And this stuff takes hard work,

    They have to pay for the web hosting which could cost $20 a month. Then there’s the domain name which is around $10 a month. That’s ALREADY $30! Then there’s I believe three artists for the comic:
    A sketch artist
    The narrative director
    The painter and the inker.
    Maybe four people.

    BUT then you gotta pay the guy who touches up the web page and from what I know a web designer gets BUKU bucks! That means they get paid a lot of money. So my friend Tim is a prgrammer and web designer. He gets $50 just for two hours of messing around. I can only imagine how much someone gets to UPDATE an entire page.

    Look, if you don’t believe me google it. Google average pay for sequential artist. Google average pay for web designer. Google average pay for narrative director or story artist.

    You’re money is well spent in this comic. If you STILL don’t think so then go read a book with the pictures. It will cost you around $18 and give you a couple weeks of fun…hopefully.

    Thanks for reading and again…PLEASE don’t take any of this the wrong way. I’m just rying to be informative.

    You all wanted to know the price…now live with it or leave.

  60. Kaz

    I donated already today, then looked at the incentive and about had a heart attack!
    Hope theres a new episode soon, keep up the great work.

  61. Bruke

    I think it’s a mistake to ask for money on a page-by-page installment basis. I’ve seen web comics before that ask for money, but they ask for a set amount to complete a story arc. Honestly, I’ll never give money to a comic that might just end in the middle of a storyline due to funding issues – but I’d give to this one if I knew there’d be some closure to tie up loose ends.
    If you estimate that the current storyline requires, for example, 30 pages at 3 pages per week then ask for the cost of running the comic for 10 weeks with the promise to complete the current storyline. A goal of several thousand (or even tens of thousands) isn’t unreasonable with micropayments from a large audience – $5000 would average just $1 each if you have 5000 readers (assuming those that donate more make up for those that don’t donate at all). I can’t imagine readers would have an issue with a couple dollars – just make sure you set up your payment gateway to take micropayments so that the processor fees don’t suck up too much of the revenue.

  62. Sparx

    I’m not saying an artist doesn’t deserve that much or that I don’t believe that people are charging that much for a comic all over the place, I just think it’s an awful lot to charge. That’s my opinion as a cartoonist. I can’t understand a comic being $200 a page if several people are working on and being paid for each page, but considering the bulk nature of a comic, if one artist was doing all of the work, $200 seems like a lot.
    I can’t afford to contribute to donations, so it’s not really my business, anyway. I can mostly agree with everyone who responded to me, but I personally could never charge that much for a single page.

  63. Gonzomatic

    I absolutely LOVE this page.

    Reminds me of my first college ‘experience’. That experience told me that I was definitely not in HS anymore. That this was the real world and just one of its many treasures should I chose to embrace it.

  64. Lady

    Why would you say my statement was retarded? Why would you say anyone’s statement is retarded? What basis does YOUR statement have? Give me examples as to WHY my statement or anyone’s statements are retarded. Do you know what retarded means? You said “reasonable” was not a black and white term. Now you say my statement is retarded. I really think you’re some troll kid tapping his key board as if he were some dip shit hot shot.
    Is that black and white enough for you?

  65. Mystic

    I recommend How to Make Webcomics by a team of webcomic artists. It covers everything including suggestions to making money out of it.

    http://tinyurl.com/htmwebcomics

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